Archbishop Wenski & The Pedophiles

Wenski.jpg
On a high holy horse.
"In our nation's culture wars," wrote Thomas Wenski, the Archbishop of Miami, in an editorial in Saturday's Sun Sentinel:

...the two sides are fighting about the understanding of man and his relationship with reality. One side -- and today, "gay marriage" is its poster child -- holds that anyone can essentially create his own reality. This side holds for a radical autonomy by which truth is determined not by the nature of things, but by one's own individual will. The other side holds men and women are not self-creators, but creatures. Truth is not constructed, but received and thus must reflect the reality of things. Or, as the Book of Genesis says: "Male and female he created them." (Genesis, 1:27)

Just to be clear, Archbishop Wenski believes that a virgin gave birth to a deity who was nailed to a piece of wood to save us from the wrath of his father; and that this deity rose from the dead, floated in the air, and ascended through a magic portal to heaven. I mention this not to cast aspersions on Wenski's faith -- I'll do that in a moment -- but to underline what Wenski means when he asserts that it's his side of the culture wars that is concerned with the "reality of things."

Wenski's Saturday editorial is a brief diatribe against gay marriage, and as that quotation suggests, its construction doesn't demonstrate a tremendous amount of authorly self-awareness. (Nor does it demonstrate much editorial self-awareness, for I doubt the Sentinel realizes that Wenski has been republishing this exact same article in different news outlets for at least three years.) Wenski does not believe gay marriage is good, just, or right -- he believes its acceptance signifies an erosion of the bedrock values upon which our society is based -- but his essay fails to argue this point convincingly, or even coherently. It is six paragraphs long, and makes four claims. Three of these are senseless, and I'll address those first. They are:


  1. Queers are intolerant. Wenski: "Those who see 'same sex marriage' as progress toward a more 'tolerant' society will, with characteristic intolerance, label their opponents as 'intolerant,' 'bigoted,' 'homophobic,' and so on."
  2. Queers should be grateful they're not being arrested anymore. Wenski: "And even those Americans who hold homosexual activity to be immoral and sinful are increasingly tolerant of homosexuality as a 'private' phenomenon. They might invite the person who experiences same sex attractions to conversion ... but they do not invoke the coercive power of the state to force such a conversion."
  3. The purpose of marriage is child-rearing. Wenski: "Marriage has been primarily about the raising of children ... The state has had a legitimate interest in favoring such traditional marriages as a way of investing in the future of society."

A few brief responses:

  • Wenski accusing the gay-marriage-crowd of intolerance is almost pure gibberish, akin to saying that blacks who opposed Jim Crow were intolerant of Southern whites, or that women who fight for wage equality are intolerant of sexist CEO's. Both statements are technically true, and both statements make useless hash of the word "tolerance." The argument would have some bite if gay activists were trying to force Catholic clergy to perform same-sex marriages, but they're not. Catholic clergy ought always be free to marry whomever they choose, and no one argues otherwise.
  • Wenski's second point, that queers should be grateful that the world's decent folk aren't monitoring and punishing their bedroom activities, is even less sensible than his first. As it happens, queers are grateful for the strides that have been made towards equality, and our memories are long enough to remember who opposed those strides. Wenski seems to suggest that the outcome of the Supreme Court case which legalized consensual sodomy, Lawrence v. Texas, was an example of Catholic compassion and moral largesse. That's not the case. If Wenski and his co-religionists had their way, private, consensual homosexual acts would still be illegal.
  • It really could be said that the purpose of marriage is to create environments in which children may be healthily reared, and Wenski is more than welcome to his opinions about what such an environment might comprise. But the child-rearing argument is really a moral one, and its validity is inherently subjective. For example: Most heterosexual married couples -- including those for whom the Archbishop performed the nuptials -- would insist that their marriages are about a great deal more than child-rearing. And whose opinions are more trustworthy? Those of actual married couples, or those of an unmarried, self-proclaimed virgin? 

But we can't say the Archbishop is exactly wrong on any of these points, because he takes no ownership of them. He insinuates and infers, dancing around his own conclusions -- as though afraid that committing them to paper in short, declarative sentences would too easily expose them to refutation. Only at the end of his essay, in outlining his fourth argument, does Wenski take a clear position:

That marriage is a life-long union between a man and a woman is certainly part of Catholic teaching, which holds it to be a sacrament. However, marriage as an institution predates both church and state. Since it is not a creation of church or state, neither has any authority to change the nature of marriage.

Even here he is begging the question -- saying, in effect, that tradition is good because it's traditional -- but at least his opinion is clear. However, grownups cannot beg the question and expect to be taken seriously, so the argument would be beneath rebuttal if Wenski, while making it, hadn't demonstrated such extraordinary ignorance of his own religion.

Apparently, the Archbishop is unaware that early Christians, beginning with Paul, absolutely loathed marriage. They saw it as an excuse to fornicate. In the second century, Cyprian, the Bishop of Carthage, wrote:

The first decree commanded to increase and to multiply; the second enjoined continency. While the world is still rough and void, we are propagated by the fruitful begetting of numbers, and we increase to the enlargement of the human race. Now when the world is filled and the earth supplied, they who can receive continency, living after the manner of eunuchs, are made eunuchs unto the kingdom. Nor does the Lord command this, but He exhorts it."
In other words: Getting married is okay, but God would prefer you not.

For obvious reasons, the spread of Catholicism necessitated a gradual softening on marriage and all its filthy attendant sex. By the ninth century, the Church was even performing marriages. (Prior to that, the Church mostly just recognized local marriage customs.) The form of marriage the Church ultimately propounded -- indissoluble, monogamous, and with a dowry -- became the template for modern Western matrimony. You'll note that Wenski implies, but doesn't quite say, that these monogamous, heterosexual marriages have been the norm in recorded history. Wenski doesn't quite say it because it's a lie. Wenski's own holy books document a long history of polygamy, most of which was approved by Wenski's god. The biblical David, the shepherd boy who felled Goliath and became king, had eight wives, and his nuptials predated those performed in Wenski's churches by several millenia. What could be more traditional?

Of course, this history is one that Wenski would rather elide, historical elision being a necessary pastime of professional Catholics everywhere. There is something repellent about a man assuming moral authority by virtue of his rank in an organization which, when it had the power, spent a millenium burning women and subjugating "savages," and which is now engaged in an international cover-up of the rape and torture of children.

Let me rephrase that: Wenski has a platform in the Sun Sentinel not because of his stature as a journalist, or as an essayist, or as an ethicist, but because he has risen to prominence in an organization which has institutionalized and then lied about the rape and torture of tens of thousands of children. To treat such a man as a moral authority is laughable. If he possessed any true moral authority, he'd have cut and run long ago -- or, at the very least, have the decency to use his Sun Sentinel platform not to pontificate, but to apologize.

UPDATE: The Catholic blogosphere has responded to this article, and I've responded to its response. Click here for more.

Follow The Juice on Facebook and on Twitter: @TheJuiceBPB.
My Voice Nation Help
55 comments
frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

as for the divisions between homsexual and heterosexual activity CONCRETELY defining the person based on certain acts committed, i would like to see someone tell BUBBA while in the big house during a stretch or immediately upon his release from custody that he was gay

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

having read most all of the other posts i guess gay bashing comes in many flavors and some even had religious quotes or facts and figures to prove their positions

what NO ONE can deny is a cover up on a grand and high scale existed

a cover up by those whose authority should reek with and drip with THE TRUTH

but who instead were inteliigent enough to realize what a gigantic hit the balance sheet of the CHRUCH would take and decided to hire bankrutcy advisors and legal eagles on cannon law and obfuscate and deceive and like a three card monte card game is played attempt to stall for time and maybe the whole thing would blow over = those FACTs are irrefuteable proven by human nature as in gay straight or otherwise

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

RE CATHOLIC PRIESTS SEXUALLY MOLESTED CHILDREN

well archbishop winski, what did you know and when did you know it ?

i think the CHURCH has an obligation to tell the TRUTH and answer these questions honestly and completely as if under oath so that brandon k thorpe and others can finally direct their energy onto other things

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

HENRY VIII had it right when he abolished the authority of the CHURCH in rome and assumed control of the CHURCH OF ENGLAND 

of course HENRY knew exactly how corrupt the authority of the CHURCH was and how little it helped the poor and elderly and needy as compared to the CHURCH higher ups leading lives of opulence and luxury

why does the CHURCH today concentrate on finding those who it sexually molested ? those little children and poor and uneducated needy ? why not EXPOSE its members who committed these horrific crimes ?

Melissa
Melissa

Dr Brian Neil Talarico North Bay Has been convicted of child molestation, an possession of child pornography on his computer. Sexually molesting a young boy. He had prior convictions for child molestation in 1990 and 2001. After his parole in 2006. Dr. Talarico Brian. Works for north east mental health centre, despite  his background, and  numerous complaints against him of abuse, fraud, negligence, and imprisonment. Address: North East Mental Health CentreNorth Bay Campus Highway 11 North North Bay Ontario P1B 8L1, and now works for Act 2, North Bay.

Ron
Ron

Are you serious? Don't give me your twisted logic and accusations of "begging the question". Everything the original article said makes total sense to any clear-thinking person not blinded by their own perverse ideology and self-deception.

As an educated man, I assert that your entire rebuttal is nonsensical, an an Alice-in-Wonderland sort of way. Go back to your dream world, and give up journalism -- you're not any good at it.

Peter Paul Fuchs
Peter Paul Fuchs

Bravo Brandon! Here is an off-beat way of answering Tom Wenski. St. John Vianney College Seminary was, when I studied and graduated there, filled with fairly exquisite paintings of the French painter Vibert. Many of the paintings featured scenes of light debauchery and mischief of bejeweled and beribboned prelates. If Tom took the example of these old fashioned prelates maybe he wouldn't be in such a bad mood, and would stop picking on gay people. I wouldn't put it past them to have sold off those paintings even though their display was the condition of the gift of the Library from Mary Louise Maytag, who had also given the collection of paintings to Coleman Carroll. But those scenes ill-fit the more Taliban extremes of today's Catholic Church. I remember one of the paintings showed a Cardinal with a young lady, and his making of the sshhh sign. All these Bishops are so miserable these days. That is why they are against gays. See how simple things are.

Tugmit
Tugmit

One Observation: the Church believes in the Sacrament of Marriage or Holy Matrimony. A sacrament is a holy religious belief (outside the state’s true authority). Just as the state government does not issue a baptism certificate, a first Holy Communion certificate, or a confirmation certificate; neither has the state EVER really had the authority to issue a “marriage” license. The requirements to enter into sacramental marriage were first established by religion before the time of Moses. It was an agreement between families and recorded by the church (priest or bishop) in the parish register or synagogue records. It was not until the 14th century that the government began requiring licenses. Marriage was, and still is, for most people, primarily a belief system, of any faith; it is a covenant. Christians, Jews, Muslims all believe that the couples should be of the opposite sex are bound for life in a supernatural way. As such, those "married" outside the church (by the state alone) should never have been given a “marriage” license; call it something else, they have no authority to regulate my baptism either. A state issued “marriage license” has nothing to do with the conferring of God’s grace or nor does imply anything religious. A state-only issued marriage license, even among heterosexuals, is more accurately a "legal union" similar to forming and filing an LLC. Taxing statuses are established and legal rights to property are determined. Legally (not morally), I see no difference in a homosexual “legal union” as I do the heterosexual common-law unions, cohabitation unions, or the secular weddings of Catholics. None are recognized as “marriages” by The Church. As I understand it, most homosexuals are insulted that their unions be called anything less than a marriage. Settling for a legal binding term like legal union, or corporation, etc… is not acceptable. Given that a person’s civil rights would/should be enforced in a legal union, there is only one reason for homosexuals to fight so hard to be recognized as being “married” - using that term alone; it is to be justified in their own eyes as equivalent to traditional religious marriage. A final analogy; Calling a homosexual cohabitation a “marriage” is synonymous with forcing Christians to accept a Jehovah’s Witness (JW) baptism as valid. Catholics recognize protestant baptisms as valid. Most protestants recognize Catholic baptisms as valid. This is because we agree on the rite, its effect, and each records the event and witness to it for anyone that inquires. Whereas, Christians do not recognize the baptisms of groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ because they have radically different beliefs about baptism. Christians have a unified belief, while the JW do not believe that the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity and believe the Jesus is a reincarnation of the Angel Michael. Christians are forced to reject their baptism. The JWs can call it a baptism all they want, but it doesn’t make it so. Likewise, homosexuals have strayed far from the very core beliefs and requirements of marriage and in standing up for their beliefs Christians, Jews, and Muslims must reject homosexual marriage as valid. Call it a marriage all you want, but it will not be recognized as such by those who take their beliefs seriously.

Miami Mom
Miami Mom

Who is this Brandon Thorp anyway...? Never heard of him before his anti-Catholic rant. Hey, Brandon - look at this UTube clip. It had more than 30 MILLION hits. And it was made by a group of people, getting together to make a statement of love and brotherhood. Comparing it to your puny attempt to demonize Catholics, it's like comparing a chimp with Einstein...

http://www.youtube.com/user/Al...

And it's 30 million times more enjoyable than reading your vicious and rambling opinion...!

Rigo4jesus
Rigo4jesus

Surely, the Sun Sentinel can find a better gay rights editorial writer than this. The Archbishop's statement is a philosophical one, perhaps someone can adress this issue from an educated standpoint. It would make for a better read than this Jack Chick history lesson.

Magister63
Magister63

What percentage of "the rape and torture of tens of thousands of children." was homosexual? 90 or more, I believe.

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

i wish you would reveal YOUR basis for those figures

on the other hand, regardless of the reasons for the crimes, the CHURCH systematically moved to LIE and DECEIVE and HIDE these crimes from prosecution and discovery which had to be dictated from the TOP authority in the CHURCH

no low level preist could have instigated such a wide-spread cover-up if not for the APPROVAL by higher-ups

and DON'T think for one instant that the CHURCH didn't conside ITS financial exposure AHEAD of the pain and suffering of those young weak innocent poor children that were sexual molested = and that is MY biggest hate !

Michael
Michael

"And whose opinions are more trustworthy? Those of actual married couples, or those of an unmarried, self-proclaimed virgin? "

Well put!

Tugmit
Tugmit

Well put? Is he talking about the bishop or Jesus? Is someone else supposed to proclaim one's self a virgin, other than self? If he means the religious orders, I'm certain some are not virgins. They are people who answered a call at varying points in their lives. However, they supposed to be celibate after taking their vows. Big difference. And, you'd be shocked regarding their depth of knowledge with the highs and lows of married life.

BTW… Yes, we rightfully hold authority to a higher standard. Google/research the CONVICTED pedophiles in your area. Law enforcement has publicized their residence locations - they show up like stars in the sky - in your own neighborhood. I don't remember the exact number, but the general population has something like 10 times the number of pedophiles per 1000 than does the church. Guess what, the church is a hospital for sinners. Would you go to a medical hospital expecting to find everyone there is well?

MB
MB

Well written~ There seem to be a lot of haters here who are blind! Didn't Jesus heal the blind? Being a Christian, I believe that not only did Jesus heal the blind but Wenski is hiding something like Charlie Crisp was...

Also, The purpose of marriage is child-rearing??? Tell that to all the divorced Catholics.

Chris Brust
Chris Brust

Here is a perfect example of how vicious and hateful the "tolerant", "non-judgmental" crowd is. The brunt of the piece is a personal attack, filled with name-calling and demonization, complete with cheap shots about Christian beliefs, e.g. the resurrection, or the child abuse, including false statements, e.g. "ten of thousands" of children, and their "torture". Which has nothing to do with the question of the good or evil of homo marriage, anyway. (Of course, they say nothing about the homosexual movement's efforts to decriminilize pedophilia and lower age of consent laws, or the pervasive link of homosexual attraction to young boys.)

Thorp's tolerance would have to include, by definition, being so of Bishop Wenski and the Catholic Church and its positions. The whole premise of the argument can also be thrown back at them: if it is not possible to speak of moral, philosophical, or religious absolutes, as the Bishop and the Church claim in regard to marriage, then who are they to say that the Bishop and the Church are "wrong" in their views. It sounds like they are just trying to "push their morality" or their particular views on others (which indeed they are).

Notice there is no rational, positive argument for homosexual marriage or the legitimacy of homosexual attractions or conduct, but again simply an attempt to discredit someone who opposes the homo agenda by vilifying them, which is plainly seen in the last paragraph- we should not be opposed to homosexual "marriage" because the authority of Wenski or the Church is "laughable" But this is what you have to do when the truth is not on your side.

Melissa
Melissa

Dr Brian Neil Talarico North Bay Has been convicted of child molestation, an possession of child pornography on his computer. Sexually molesting a young boy. He had prior convictions for child molestation in 1990 and 2001. After his parole in 2006. Dr. Talarico Brian. Works for north east mental health centre, despite  his background, and  numerous complaints against him of abuse, fraud, negligence, and imprisonment. Address: North East Mental Health CentreNorth Bay Campus Highway 11 North North Bay Ontario P1B 8L1, and now works for Act 2, North Bay.

Tomis
Tomis

A better title would have been "Archbishop Wenski and the Gay Priests," since most of the abuse cases involved homosexual priests who preyed on sexually confused young men. These were, for the most part, priests who disagreed with church teaching on homosexuality and saw themselves as "liberating" young men, and helping them to discover the wonderfulness of gay sex. Their actions were very much like those of gay activists who lobby to reduce the age of consent, as they have succeeded in doing in a number of countries--they, too, think that, if only sexually confused young men can have the opportunity to explore their homosexual fantasies with older, more experienced gay men, the world would be a more beautiful place. As Michael Rose's GOODBYE GOOD MEN has documented, the priesthood and episcopacy had, at the height of the abuse crisis, been hijacked by a "lavender mafia", promoted through the seminaries. We are only now starting to get rid of some of these characters. Benedict XVI's document barring active homosexuals from seminaries was a good start, but a lot of work needs to be done. Mr. Thorpe obviously has no idea about any of this.

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

tomis

sadder is we have no idea because the CHURCHs attorneys suppress the evidence and those who settle typically agree NOT to "go public" with their story so you are correct that no one can refute the CHURCHs position

mathematically not all preditor priests would be homosexual so an observer would expect to find heterosexual priest among the molestors as in typical prison settings heterosexual males routinely rely on what would be classified as homosexual acts outside of confinement

the bugger problem i have with the CHURCH is the LYING and DECEIT and STONEWALLING at the highest levels of CHURCH authority indicating no moral or ethical or civil humanity would prevail against the potential of mere financial loss = no truth would be exposed and brought out into the open since it would cost too much money

realistically homosexual preists could be as good at guiding spirituality as heterosexual priests conversely heterosexual priests could be more guilty at deviant sexual predidation than those known to be homosexual = their orientation makes them each group no more or less to want to murder someone either

nanook5
nanook5

i'm sorry to say that i've an idea about what you're talking about because i've been exposed to plenty of vicious, lying bigots in my time. if you really believe that what you're saying is true, go ahead and say anything you just said to someone you don't know in person and send us pictures of how badly you get fucked in face, prick.

Bethne
Bethne

The title, perhaps intentionally provocative, is nonetheless accurate. It is an empircal fact that pedophilia is far less about sexual orientation than it is about power and control. To state that "the abuse crisis in the church was one primarily due to homosexually disordered clerics that preyed upon boys" is not only inaccurate, it is ignorant in the truest sense of the word and perpetuates the unfounded stereotype of homosexuality= pedophilia.

From a statistical perspective, most pedophiles identify as heterosexual, and most victims of childhood sexual assault are not chosen based on gender but on accessability. For most pedophiles gender is irrelevant, it is prepubescences that is the attractant, though even that is a vast oversimplification.

Therefore, if you would really like to take a stance that sexually disordered clerics preyed upon boys, you must recognize that it was probably heterosexually disordered clerics who preyed on the children they had easiest access to... boys.

David Homoney
David Homoney

Bethne - Most of the abuse wasn't pedophilia, which is again pre-pubescent, but was against older kids. It is very much a homosexual thing. Your characterization is the ignorant part of this. Furthermore, it is a canard, since there are far higher rates of abuse in public schools and other secular institutions. There is plenty of research showing this from non-Catholic sources. I doubt you will check though, as this data has been around for quite some time, but instead of opining from an educated stance you have chosen to show a lack of charity and understanding of the issue.

Bethne
Bethne

@ Christopher: thank you for taking the time to post a reply that was well thought out and articulated. There are traditional and orthodox priests in the Catholic church who are without question strong leaders for their congregation as well as community. You are correct that the actions, though perpetuated by others, are made more evil when committed by priest (or anyone in a position of trust, in my opinion).

The information that I presented was on the nature of pedophilia, not a commentary on the Catholic church or priests. The same information could be generalized to school teachers, politicians, protestant clergy, or officers of the law. Unfortunately people who exploit children are attracted to positions where they can gain trust and power, the position is irrelevant as the position is also exploited as it is a means to an end. I used priests as an example as it was the topic of this article.

My argument, one that the John Jay and other reports and research support, is that sexual exploitation and assault is rarely about sexual orientation. The Catholic church takes the stance that homosexuality is a sin, which is based on Biblical scripture, and I'm not here to debate that one way or another. There are homosexual priests who have affairs with consenting males, just like there are heterosexual priests who have affairs with consenting females. Celibacy is an issue for the church. The issue for society, both within and outside of religion, is that in order to understand why sexual abuse occurs, people need to understand that homosexuality and pedophilia are not interchangable and child sexual abuse is far more complex than a deviant attraction.

Jarhead462
Jarhead462

Wrong. Read the statistics published by John Jay.

Bethne
Bethne

per the john jay report:

"Like in the general population, child sex abuse in the Catholic Church appears to be committed by men close to the children they allegedly abuse." According to the study, "many (abusers) appear to use grooming tactics to entice children into complying with the abuse, and the abuse occurs in the home of the alleged abuser or victim." The study characterized these enticements as actions such as buying the minor gifts, letting the victim drive a car and taking youths to sporting events. The most frequent context for abuse was a social event and many priests socialized with the families of victims. Abuses occurred in a variety of places with the most common being the residence of the priest. 22% were younger than age 10, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14".

how does that conflict with anything I said?

Jarhead462
Jarhead462

Per the John Jay report- “more than three-quarters of the victims were post pubescent, meaning the abuse did not meet the clinical definition of pedophilia.” In other words, the issue is homosexuality, not pedophilia.

Bethne
Bethne

also, per the john jay findings (which was even conducted on behalf of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops)...

"It is an unwarranted conclusion to assert that the majority of priests who abused children are homosexuals"

Resurgam5
Resurgam5

Here's your problem, Bethne:

Most the abuse by Catholic priests was of PUBESCENT boys, not pre-pubescent. So pedophilia isn't involved in most cases.

Next time, read up a little on a topic before spouting your opinion.

Bethne
Bethne

Altar servers typically start serving around age 10, or after first communion, which places them at prepubescent age. Abuse typically doesn't stop because of puberty, but remains considered pedophilic because the intial encounters happened before puberty. Pedophiles are often slow to groom their victims, starting the process before puberty but not engaging in penetrative behavior until around puberty when they can exploit burgeoning sexual desires in children.

Also, pedophila is an umbrella term that may also encompass hebephiles, people who are sexually attracted to children in the early stages of puberty, typically 12-14ish. (pedophilia also also encompasses infantophilia, which is another matter entirely, though not one that is completely irrelevant because there have been accounts of that by clergy as well).

I'm well read on the topic, and the information I provide is more than opinion, but empirically based.

frankd4
frankd4 topcommenter

how about those who knew about the deviant behavior of others BUT covered it up ? where THEY more likely homosexual or heterosexual ?

to me the lying and deception and stonewalling was MORE of a sin and inexcusable than the actual deviant predidation

MORE because such authority should have seeked out the TRUTH; and committed themselves to saving the CHURCH by revealing the problem

in vino veritas

Christopher
Christopher

Mr. Bethne,

I would advise that you look up information in the John Jay report. I would also advise that you get a better understanding about what was going on within the Church. Do you think orthodox, conservative and traditional priests were the ones who did these things to children? Hmmm? Or was it the friendly liberal priest that did not agree with the Church's view on clerical celibacy and homosexuality? Hmmm? So the priest who understood he was different from lay people or the friendly priest who wanted to have sleepovers with the neighborhood boys? Think about it! Bethne I do not doubt that your intentions are good and just, these acts were evil and made more so by the fact that these were committed by priests. Yet let us not look at action without understanding the thought or zeitgeist behind it. When one follows Church teachings one is moral and just and yet one listens to their own individualistic morality based on "progressive" thinking, well then we have a problem. Be a good lad and pray for Holy Mother Church, your heart is right and yet you need to direct your actions. Please understand that there are sinners within the Church, that it are sinners who need the Church, I my friend am a sinner within the Church and therefore I need her and God’s sacraments. God bless you dear friend, may Almighty God direct your actions and your heart.

Dominus tecum,

Christopher

P.S. There is a great book titled Good Bye Good Men look it up, it’s by Michael Rose.

Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto

Guest
Guest

Even the title to this is a lie.

The abuse crisis in the Church was one primarily due to homosexually disordered clerics that preyed upon boys.

Catholics R Fuckd
Catholics R Fuckd

Jesus Christ would turn his back at those who preach intolerance in this day and age.Man has actually evolved in the past 2000 years unbenounced to the lambs of those who have held power.Now that they have lost hand and much of their dogma is proven false what else do they have left?Turn their back on the real teachings of Jesus and preach hate and fear to round up the flock.

Guest
Guest

Jesus Christ would turn His back on no one.

It is those who turn their back on Him who have a problem.

One does not tolerate sin.

Guest
Guest

But we have to tolerate your ignorance... how is this fair?

anon
anon

He would? Jesus condemned sin.

anon
anon

You easily lost when you said that Paul and early Christians loathed marriage. What a joke.

Guest
Guest

"But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt." -1 Corinthians 7:8-9 Douay-Rheims Bible (Since we're dealing with Catholics)

Doesn't that scripture exhort unmarried believers to abstain from marriage, you know, unless you lack self-control?

David Homoney
David Homoney

Easy to pull things out of context and it is not an exhortation against marriage.

athelstane
athelstane

This is what happens when you prooftext - lift one isolated passage out of Scripture and out of context of the tradition, and try to build mighty doctrine on it.

St. Paul *does* see celibacy as a superior state - superior because the one in this state is better able to focus on worship of God. But he is also a realist; he knows that most men and women are not suited to this life, and that the original design of men and women was complementary union in marriage. As a former rabbi, St. Paul would have known Genesis almost by heart, after all. These two propositions are not at all incompatible with each other. This is why he talks here and elsewhere (Eph. 5:22 et seq, etc.) of marriage and how it is ordered. And it seems deucedly odd to conclude that the early Church loathed marriage when it was understood early on as one of the seven Sacraments (see St. Amrose's letter to Siricius, St. Augustine's "De bono conjugii" and "De nuptiis et concupiscentia," and Tertullian's Ad Uxorem; examples could be multipled ad infinitum). If this is loathing, it is a strange way to go about it.

So it is unfair to suggest that St. Paul and the early Christians loathed marriage. That's simply not borne out by Scripture - Christ's first miracle was at the wedding at Cana, after all - or by the writings of the Church Fathers, or by the overwhelming weight of other evidence (Edward Gibbon does not count). If you were talking about the Cathars - who abhorred not only sex but all physical reality - now, you would be on to something.

Guest
Guest

Oh hey...how about every single line in the Bible that's supposedly condemning of homosexuality? Have you ever considered the context of these passages? Or the fact that there are only SIX of them in the entire Bible? Or the fact that Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality? You'd think that if it was a big deal to God, Jesus would have at least talked about it once or twice...

Sandy
Sandy

I think you might be in trouble with the publishers of the Chick Tracts, found so often in the Bible Belt region. Almost verbatim, you hypocrites need to get some new material.

But WAIT!!!

There are tracts against you too!! Oh what a quandary

Just be careful when you start insulting the "religion of peace" (or is it pieces?)

Really, just grow up, and find a room PLEASE!

ADICH
ADICH

Brandon K. Thorp - a man on a hill shining his flashlight at the sun.

Guest
Guest

"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house." Matthew 5:14 D-R

Honestly, he's just doing what he can to show people the truth. Amen brother for realizing that people who stare at the sun will go blind.

TRP
TRP

Thank you to the editorial writer, for illustrating Archbishop Wenski's point about the intolerance of gay marriage advocates.

Coxygru NeenerAthal
Coxygru NeenerAthal

"The intolerance of gay-marriage advocates"? Yes, TRP, I'll admit we're particularly intolerant of the anti-gay lobbyists fundraising to punish lawmakers sympathetic to our cause and millions more to bribe/blackmail other legislators to maintain 2nd class status for LGBT people. The list of crimes is long.

Alexander S Anderson
Alexander S Anderson

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Guest
Guest

Excuse me, I believe I recognized and understood a coherent thread. Just because you disagree with a point do not attack the article itself.

In closing, "may God have mercy on your soul." What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.

Phil Steinacker
Phil Steinacker

Hey, guest! (who's too cowardly to post his name):

Your remark "Just because you disagree with a point do not attack the article itself" is truely idiotic.

The author of this article attacks both the archbishop and the article he wrote. So where is your criticism of THAT?

Hypocrite!

Guest
Guest

He attacks points within the man's article and the institution that he belongs to and represents. Stop throwing the word hyopcrite around and turn the other cheek already.

nanook5
nanook5

he's quoting billy madison.

From the Vault

 

Browse Voice Nation
  • Voice Places Broward / Palm Beach

    Voice Places

    Find everything you're looking for in your city

  • Happy Hour App

    Happy Hour App

    Find the best happy hour deals in your city

  • Daily Deals

    Daily Deals

    Get today's exclusive deals at savings of anywhere from 50-90%

  • Best Of

    Best Of...

    Check out the hottest list of places and things to do around your city