Kane And Able, Part III
Okay, so I told you I was going to be on Steve Kane Show this morning and you still managed to miss it. I forgive you. Instead of giving a play-by-play, the transcript is as follows. Do with it what you will. I have nothing to hide. On the show, there was Steve Kane, and Frank Turek, and myself. The main set-up you need is to know that they both wanted to convince me that the Koran is an evil instrument of hatred and Muslims are bent on world-domination no matter what we good Christian and Jewish folk try to do.
Kane, who I must say was solid and professional throughout the show, began by reading some of the post I wrote below about Rev. O'Neal Dozier, which he obviously felt was crap. He started the show by listing Muslim wars and atrocities -- Darfur, Rwanda, Somalia, Chechnya, terrorist acts, etc. It was a long list. The inference was simple: Muslims were terrible killers, flat and simple. He brought up Altaf Ali, the head of the Council of American-Islamic Relations, which he called a "front for terrorists" and Ali's statement during a recent Laura Ingraham Show that the Muslim terrorists a small group of "bad apples." Then Kane tried to quantify just how many Muslims really are in on the killing. Let's pick up Kane now. Enjoy:
KANE: I think it's a healthy percentage ...
PULP: You say a healthy percentage? What is that?
KANE: You know something, I'm going to be very honest with you, I don't think I'm qualified to name that number, but I would like Frank to put in his two cents here.
FRANK: Steve and Bob, I don't think anyone knows what that number is. But I think we can all agree it has a significant influence on the entire group of people we would call Muslims. Because how many Muslims do you see who come out publicly and really condemn those attacks? Very few. Why? Because they know if they do, they're the next target ...
PULP: The majority of Muslims are living in fear of the minority? Is that what you're saying?
FRANK: I would say there's prima facie evidence that that's the case, Bob. How many Muslims after 9-11 did you hear come out [against the attacks].
PULP: I went out and talked to a lot of imams and local Muslim leaders and I heard every one of them at least say that they wished it wouldn't have happened. Most of them said that it was an abomination. A lot of Muslim leaders in this area said that it wasn't what Islam stands for.
KANE: When 9/11 first happened ... I brought in a whole series of Muslim leaders and, yes, every one of them said 9/11 wasn't a good thing. They didn't approve of it. Which was what I would call a mild condemnation. But as I probed further, as I said, 'Well do you think that our relationship with Israel had anything to do with what happened? Do you think we brought this on ourselves?' Every single one of them got that fire in their eyes and started saying how this was a result of our foreign policy and putting bases in Saudi Arabia.
PULP: Of course it was. Are you denying that's a fact?
PULP: How can you say that? Are you like George W. Bush and believe these people suddenly woke up evil one morning?
FRANK: Bob, this has been going on since 632. This is not a new phenonemon ... We need to create a distinction between what the Koran says and what many Muslims believe. I just came back from Iran. I was on the expedition that went to look at that object that could be Noah's Ark. I found the people in Iran to be wonderful people. They were very warm, very friendly, they liked Americans, however, that country is currently being run by mullahs who believe in the literal interpretation of the verses that Steve mentioned at the top of the show, so we obviously had to be careful over there.
KANE: I think we're getting somewhere here. I'd love to have a meeting of the minds, as far-fetched as that sounds. I think that answers your initial question. It is not the majority of Muslims, but it is a sizable minority that has a reign of terror over the rest of Muslims. Which is why, while the people of Iran are decent people, Iran as a country is a major threat to the survival of the world.
PULP: I generally agree with that. I do. I'm certainly not going to stand here and get behind the mullahs in Iran. I am just as repulsed by the idea of an Islamic state as anyone because it's a backwards society. But do these mullahs actually want to come out and cut off people's heads? I don't know. Are they really that into world domination? I think they want to be left alone to run their little societies the way they want to.
KANE: You don't believe what basically the president of Iran says now that this is all about basically destroying the United States and basically taking over the world?
PULP: People say "Death to America" because America is in their region. I don't have to bring up all the evidence and all the facts. Kissinger said oil is too important for it to be owned by Arabs and that's been the basis of our foreign policy for years.
FRANK: How come oil is three dollars a barrel over here. Or I should say three dollars a gallon, gas is three dollars a gallon.
PULP: You're saying our interest in the Middle East isn't about oil?
FRANK: Of course that's part of it.
PULP: You know it's about oil.
FRANK: We didn't go over there and confiscate their oil fields which we could have if we wanted to.
PULP: We can't just confiscate their oil fields. We found out what happens when we went to Iraq ...
KANE: We have to go to a break ... Frank asked you a great question, Bob ... if we went over there for oil why is oil is so expensive now?
PULP: Because of the conflict right now. I think it's shot up because of what's happening in Lebanon.
FRANK: Lebanon? That just happened two weeks ago.
PULP: Yes, and it's spiked in the past two weeks. Have you not noticed?
FRANK: Why did it go from a buck-fifty to three dollars a gallon in a year and a half?
PULP: Maybe that had something to do with Iraq. That's part of the reason.
FRANK: If we went over there for oil, then gas should be 25 cents a gallon over here.
PULP: We're incompetent. We have screwed up everything we have tried to do.
[Kane took us off the to the first break. When we came back, the host quoted passages out of the Koran about killing Jews and Christian and Jihad and such]
PULP: That was written during a time of war. I want to say that you're picking out little sentences in a big book.
KANE: Little sentences in a big book? Bob, let me try to appeal to you rationally here. ... Certainly you can understand that any member of Islam who reads this book and takes it seriously is going to be a threat?
PULP: I suppose if somebody is reading just these passages and putting a lot of emphasis on just these passages, I think they could be a threat. But again, going to the geopolitical -- you know, the reality in the world right now -- there's reasons for why the terrorist attacks are occurring.
FRANK: Were the same reasons in place in 632?
PULP: You're trying to create a pattern here that this is all the Muslims' fault ...
KANE: Let me jump in on Bob's side on this Frank. Give me a second here. Bob and people who support Bob's position, people who talk about the Crusades and the Inquisition, let's limit it to the last 200 years Frank. Within that framework, how would you address Bob's question?
FRANK: Well I would go back to Thomas Jefferson who in his presidency basically declared war on the Tripoli pirates who were Muslims. Because they were invading our ships in the Mediterranean. And he went over there without the U.N. by the way to set the record straight.
PULP: They were pirates. Of course they were going to go after them.
FRANK: They were Muslim pirates.
PULP: Muslims? Were there Christian pirates? What religion was Blackbeard?
FRANK: Bob, you need to read a history book my friend.
PULP: You just said we're at war with Muslims and you bring up a group of pirates. That's pathetic.
FRANK: They were called the Barbary pirates, they were out of Tripoli. They were Muslims.
PULP: You think all pirates that attacked our ships were Muslims?
KANE: Let's go beyond the Barbary pirates.
PULP: Please do.
FRANK: Bob ... let's go back to the Olympics in 1972. Who caused that Bob?
PULP: It was terrible. That was a Palestinian terrorist group.
FRANK: How about the former embassy that I stood before in Iran, who did that Bob?
PULP: Oh yeah, you can point out these attacks. They happen. There's no doubt about it. But there are political realities underlying those things. They are reactions to actions.
KANE: Oh, this is a really good discussion. Bob, by the way, it wasn't the Palestinians. It was Hezbollah. By the way I think that's where Hezbollah made its debut at the Olympics there on that horrible thing where they mass-murdered the Jewish team. Explain to us the politics that justified the murder of those Jews at the Olympics.
PULP: There's nothing that justifies that. I don't condone, you know, I talked to [local Islamist imam] Rafiq Mahdi before you did ... and I condemned Rafiq Mahdi, you know, as an extremist. I don't believe in terrorism in any way, shape, or form. Hamas is a terrorist group. They have to deal with what they do. They kill innocents--
KANE: If you want to ask what percentage of the mass violence is caused by Islamo-fascists then I'm telling you and I'm pulling this number out of the air 95 percent of the conflicts going on in the world today are because of the aggression of Muslim extremists.
PULP: But the aggression of Muslim extremists are a reaction to the geopolitical force of America in their region. Look, if Saudi Arabia had a base in Florida you would go nuts.
KANE: I wouldn't cut off anybody's head. Hold on, I want to get back to this because you're contradicting yourself. When I gave you a specific example which was the terrorists at the Olympics your response to that was right on the money, a correct lucid response, there is nothing that justifies it.
PULP: It's wrong.
KANE: That's what I'm saying. Then when I ask you in a generic way about all the violence they are causing around the world you say, 'Well, it's because there's some things happening to them,' or 'Because of the situation.' Nothing justifies it, just like the Olympics, Bob.
PULP: It doesn't justify it. But we are trying to take over land by stealth and ... there's all kinds of ways that we've done it. And of course Israel right now is the engine for all of this hatred. And the way this has played out is they occupy Palestinian lands. And you talk about terrorism, prior to the creation of Israel, Jews were committing terrorism in that region, King David Hotel, et cetera.
PULP: Are you saying that didn't happen?
KANE: What you are doing is you are throwing out so many things that you are not letting us address any one of them in particular.
[Kane goes to break. When he comes back he starts reading the last Dozier post I wrote on the Pulp, including a line about letting go of "ancient hatreds."]
KANE: Is that a concession on your part that the Koran is filled with what you call hatreds?
PULP: I think there are hatreds in all religions and I think they are passed on.
KANE: Can you point out anything comparable in the Bible?
PULP: Well the Bible is just full, the Old Testament is full, of godawful violence. I'm not gonna get into ... I'm not a theologian Steve, I look at this more in terms of people today.
KANE: I appreciate your modesty and your realism that you're not a theologian ... but you make a statement here in talking about, let me just finish this sentence and you'll see what I'm saying: "We have to deal with flesh-and-blood people, not with centuries-old books and ancient hatreds. The idea of a Muslim State repulses me. So does a Christian State (which is what Dozier espouses) or, yes, I'll say it, a Jewish State." So you're repulsed by Israel, a Jewish state?
PULP: No, I'm not repulsed by Israel. I think that Israel needs reform.
KANE: Israel is a Jewish state, you understand that?
PULP: It is and the idea of that doesn't sit well with me. I don't believe that any government can operate correctly if it's completely aligned with one religion. It's not going work. Israel is not going to work the way it's set up right now.
KANE: I understand, but that's not my question--
PULP: And I want it to work.
KANE: But "repulse" is not my word ... Maybe you want to do a clarification on that in your next thing. Because you're telling me now that you're not repulsed by Israel.
PULP: I'd like to see Israel be more inclusive and be more democratic and I guess that is impossible. It's a huge problem over there. And that's why I think you'll find that we're not talking over each other. I think we all know this is the biggest issue in the world.
KANE: ... You go on to say, "We're dealing with extremists ... you're looking at two sides of the same coin." Are you creating a moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity?
PULP: Yes. I don't know if you want to call it a moral equivalency, call it what you will, I believe that both sides are capable of equal atrocities. I'm going to give you an example of what you could call a Christian atrocity. And that's the war in Iraq.
KANE: The war in Iraq is a Christian atrocity?
PULP: Well, America is, okay, let's call it a Judeo-Christian atrocity.
KANE: See Bob again, I hate to, well, you'll reconcile these things. On the one hand you say the war is about oil. Now you're saying it was a religious war that was caused by the Jews and Christians.
PULP: Absolutely not. I'm not saying that it's a religious war. I think that may play into a bit. I mean I think it's very complicated, all the reasons. I think Israel amped up the pre-war rhetoric and I think that's well-documented.
KANE: Frank can you straighten us out, two non-theologians.
PULP: No, now you're getting in my wheelhouse, Steve. This is about politics.
FRANK: Don't write an article on theology and then say you're not a theologian, Bob.
PULP: It's not about theology.
FRANK: You know about Islamic states, Christian states, and Jewish states and then after you say that, you say you're not a theologian.
PULP: I said I was against them. And I am and I always will be. I'm not backtracking here at all. I believe in democracy, Frank.
FRANK: Who gives the rights of the people in a democracy?
PULP: The people. We're finding that out now in the Palestinian territories right now real well, aren't we?
KANE: Absolutely, absolutely.
FRANK: There are no rights guaranteed us by a creator, it's just that whoever has the--
PULP: --For democracy to work, we have to have the conditions to foster a decent democracy. Right now we don't have that--
KANE: --Hold on, time out. I have to stop the argument, Bob. You threw in a little thing inferring that there is no democracy in the Palestinian territories. I want to point out to you that they were granted the right to have an election, they had an election --
PULP: I was referring to that, actually. And Hamas was elected.
KANE: And who did they choose, the terrorist faction. That's why we're having this trouble. In fact the two factions of Hamas were fighting each other after the election.
PULP: It's a tough situation. I mean I think that is the result of bad brokering in that region and we've allowed violence to fester for too long.
KANE: Maybe it's the result of the fact that the militants are reading this book--
PULP: --No, maybe it's a result of the fact that they want their damn homes back, thank you very much. I mean there's serious issues going on here.
FRANK: You are correct that some Palestinians have maybe a legitimate beef, their homes have been taken away from them.
PULP: I'd call it a legitimate beef.
FRANK: I don't disagree with any of that.
PULP: You can't.
FRANK: But this whole idea about killing the infidels predates 1948. I don't buy your premise that we're only going to need to talk about the previous 30 years. If you want to we can, but that's irrelevent--
PULP: --These people who are the extremists would have no power were it not for the political realities that we create.
FRANK: Bob, allow me to finish. I haven't been interrupting you.
PULP: Okay, go ahead.
FRANK: The main point is this has been going on 1400 years that Islam has been aggressive against the west since Muhammed. In fact, when Muhammed said what is the greatest commandment, he said to believe in Allah and his prophet Muhammed and the second greatest commandment was to commit jihad against the infidel. You know when Jesus was asked the same question, he said love the Lord thy God with all your heart and the second is love your neighbor as yourself. When Muhammed is asked the question Jesus is asked he says ... kill, kill the neighbor, don't love your neighbor.
KANE: That seems like a major difference Bob, wouldn't you concede that?
PULP: Do you think that's what the Lebanese refugees, the tens of thousands who are flooding out of Beirut, are thinking right now? Maybe. These people are getting bombed out of their homes. We are creating more hatred. That's what it's all about. These bombs are creating more hatred.
KANE: Israel was fired upon from southern Lebanon. If they started firing rockets on Staten Island what would be a reasonable response.
PULP: I'm a realist Steve, I think you know that. And I believe that Israel had a right to retaliate. I'm appalled by the scale of the retaliation. I think it is disproportionate. I think blowing up power plants -- and they just did it on the Gaza Strip as well, um, blowing up power plants. We all had to deal with that after Wilma. We know how horrible it is to have no water, no electricity. For Israel to blow up power plants and water supplies, to blow up bridges, to cripple an entire nation over two soldiers--
KANE: --It's not about two soldiers.
PULP: That's what they say.
[Kane goes off to break again. When we come back, Kane and Frank start out with more about how Muslims have been blowing us up since 632.]
KANE: And the worst part Bob is it's not going to stop.
PULP: I'm not sure about that. What I believe we need to do is first of all, we've got to take care of the Israeli-Palestinian problem. And the way to do that is to get the entire world behind a solution. And America has been keeping that from happening with their one-sided support of Israel.
FRANK: You mean the America that wants to form a Palestinian state?
PULP: Lip service. At the time we had an opportunity -- post-September 11, we had an opportunity, we had some good will -- we spoiled it.
KANE: Bob, we created a Palestinian state, we oversaw it, we pushed it through, we had elections, and they voted for a government that believes Israel should be destroyed. So what did we do wrong here?
PULP: What we need to do is create a true two-state system. Under the current conditions peace isn't possible there. We need to end the occupations, et cetera. Now again, I believe Israel has the right to exist and Israel was formed from some of the worst suffering known to mankind. I love the idea of Israel and I think Israel can work. It's just not working the way it is. That's why I come out and speak like this.
KANE: Do you feel that it's impossible for anyone to negotiate with Hezbollah?
PULP: I think that it's possible to negotiate with anyone. I don't take this George W. Bush 'shut up everybody and I'm not going to pay any attention to you' thing.
KANE: Do you think the NAACP could negotiate with the Ku Klux Klan?
PULP: Everybody, okay. I don't see the point of not talking to people.
KANE: Let me tell what the problem is with communication: When you are dealing with a side that is fanatic and dedicated to your destruction, it doesn't matter. Clinton had talks with North Korea. Clinton had extensive talks. They had all kinds of agreements and once they had the agreements North Korea went its merry way and continued to develop nuclear weapons while we sat by and thought we had an agreement. You can't negotiate with certain people.
FRANK: With Islam, the Koran even says this, or the Hadith, one of the two, even says it is okay to lie to your enemy. You need to understand the mindset there, Bob, you have not done your research.
PULP: You need to get past these hatreds and get into the political realities instead of spouting --
KANE [laughing]: These facts--
PULP: --It sounds like your design is to create more hatred and to make any push for peace impossible. Do you want utter annihilation? Is that your goal, Frank?
FRANK: That's what they want, Bob. That's what they want. And what are we to do if they want to annihilate us? Negotiate with them? How are we going to do that Bob?
PULP: Who wants to totally annihilate us? I thought we established early on that the vast majority of Muslims don't want to annihilate us. They want to live in peace.
[There's shouting happening here. Frank amped it up and I took the bait].
KANE: Oh, Islam wants to live in peace with the U.S.? Then why back in 90 did they try to take down the Twin Towers before George Bush was even in office? When Bill Clinton was in office?
PULP: I thought we established those were extremists. But I'll tell you why, because of incursions on their land, that's why.
FRANK: Bob, a majority of Muslims don't want our destruction. A majority of them are fine peace-loving people.
PULP: Thank you.
FRANK: We agree with that Bob. We're talking about the people who are running Iran right now. What do we do about them?
PULP: Number one, I would start a dialogue. I would see what their problems are, I would see what they want--
FRANK: Bob, Bob, we had a dialogue and they kicked us out of the country. They took our embassy. Hello, McFly?
[Only place I'm going to do this. What I should have said here is, "Yes, after we installed a greedy and corrupt dictator, the Shah of Iran, and they got sick of being a puppet of the U.S." But I didn't].
PULP: That was 30 years ago.
KANE: Oh, they changed.
FRANK: Oh, they've been nice to us since, Bob?
PULP: So we don't talk? Something happened 30 years ago and it's over? And what do you say we do Frank? Do you want to go in? Do you want to drop a bomb -- the bomb -- on them Frank? I'm sitting here saying we need to open a dialogue with these people, even the worst regimes.
[Kane says I should do an article about the debate with Frank]
PULP: Yes, I think it's an interesting dialogue. But I don't like this drive to destruction.
FRANK: I don't either, but they want to destroy us, they said so.
PULP: They don't have the power to destroy us.
FRANK: That's what they're trying to get, Bob, that's exactly right.
KANE: What's going on in Iraq where they're infiltrating Iraq and trying to break up the democratic government of Iraq now?
PULP: What, Iran? You know Iraq isn't going to work the way it's set up right now.
KANE: Certainly not with the Muslim extremists trying to undermine it. Anyway, guys, you were both great. Looking forward to doing this again. We got to do a chapter two.