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Brandon, my boy:
I fear you don't understand.
I mean, we're not talking Mozart, Vivaldi, or Bach for God's sake (pun intended).
Why?
Because Cavalry Chapel is to Jesus what velvet painting is to art.
In other words, some people find pleasure in a painting of poker playing dogs -- while others take comfort in Bob Poe's homeletics.
And also why some women prefer K Mart over Victoria's Secret when it comes to a nice pair of panties.
Mr. Thorp,
You must change your ways immediately. God's love is there for all. You have willfully blinded yourself to it, and he can forgive you. But you only have so much time.
Tina
Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 13 2008 @ 12:21PMWhy would you expect it to be otherwise? It's Fast Food Faith, after all. These aren't hymns, they're advertising jingles targeted at those who just want a quick fix of feel-good junk-food philosophy, so that they can feel self-righteous for the rest of the week while they live out they're self-absorbed pre-fab lives, completely devoid of any true Christian virtue (or any other kind for that matter). Their "religion" is just one more consumer product, another status-symbol that requires nothing more of them than asking, however insincerely. These are the people with a shoal of Jesus fish on the back of their Escalade who would sooner run you down in a crosswalk than acknowledge that they have any responsibility to another human being or society at large. "Hey, I'm a Christian! Get the F*$% outta my way! I got a lotta stuff to do!" These people lack both the intellect and the patience for anything meaningful in their lives. It'd interfere with their ego trip.
Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 13 2008 @ 12:36PMRob - I do not know to which ideology you subscribe, if any at all. But I don't think many members of Calvary Chapel would deign to speak in cruel, thoughtless generalities about such a large, diverse number of people as you just have. In my experience, the people at Calvary are very considerate of others. They are very giving. They are very kind.
What the elitists and atheists always miss about Christianity is that it's not an appeal to the intellect, or to vanity, or to sophistication. It is not supposed to be "cool" We're aware that people laugh at our Jesus fish, and we don't care. No more than we care if you think our religion is a "product." Think what you want. We know better.
There is a part of you that is not physical or intellectual. There is a part of you that is a "soul," and it speaks to you constantly. The author of this piece cannot hear his, because he has shut his ears to it. You seem to have done much the same thing. It would be in your long term interests to begin paying attention.
Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 13 2008 @ 12:48PMCoretta,
With all due respect, I know that my generalizations do not apply to all Christians, just as any generalization is not universal. But they exist because they often do describe the overwhelming majority of the target group - and that's the case here. What you seem to misunderstand is that the reason others ridicule the Jesus fish isn't because they think you're "un-cool" (after all, Christian rock is just Christianity's way of TRYING to be cool, so I guess they do care), it's because the vast majority of those who wear their christianity on their sleeves are the worst at living their lives according to the teachings of Jesus. The fish, along with all the other external trappings of religion that they display are just substitutes for the lack of real understanding of what Christianity demands of them.
Witness the recent bans on gay marriage passed by several states, including Florida as just the most recent example of how truly un-Christian most Christians are. Or look at how they treat people who want equal respect for their non-Christian beliefs. Or just listen to how they talk about gays, atheists, etc. (so much for not deigning " to speak in cruel, thoughtless generalities about such a large, diverse number of people"). Every time one of you tells someone else that your beliefs are superior to theirs, every time you knock on someone's door and imply that their way of living their life is somehow defective, you are being every bit as cruel and thoughtless and insulting to them and everyone like them. But then I don't expect most Christians to get that, since their heads are stuck so far up their posteriors that they aren't capable of such empathy. At least I know I'm being insulting; but then I'm just returning the favor.
As a Christian, it's you're duty to live YOUR life according to your beliefs. At the same time you are very clearly directed by Jesus to allow others to accept or reject that for themselves. But most so-called Christians in this country instead constantly seem to think that their "faith" gives them the right to deny others the freedom of choice in their lives that Jesus demands you allow. They continually try to use the Laws of Man to force their particular warped interpretation of the Laws of God on everyone else. They force us to recite a Pledge of Allegiance to our flag which they desecrated by later adding a reference to their imaginary friend, they insulted the ideals of our Founding Fathers by forcing a change in our national motto from "E Pluribus Unum" (from many, one) dating from 1776, to "In God We Trust" in 1956. For a people who claim that this world is not their true home, they seem very insistent on taking it from the rest of us, and attack us quite viciously if we even hint that they shouldn't. How very Christian of them.
They do not generally act with any more compassion, kindness, or hospitality (and frequently with far less), except to those they deem worthy (despite Jesus's clear teaching that they are not qualified to make such judgement), and seldom do it at all when they feel anonymous (like when driving). I guess God can't see them through their tinted windows. How many Christians support the death penalty and at the same time have never visited someone in prison in order to relieve their suffering (as Jesus instructs them to do)? How many Christians have ever made any real personal sacrifice to feed the poor, shelter the homeless, or heal the sick (rather than claim they deserve their suffering as punishment)?
The soulless drivel they call music that is the subject of this article goes along with this pattern. Most of these people don't want to be inconvenienced by the requirements of real faith, they just want a facade of (self) righteousness to show off among their social group, and a saccharine sound track to go along with it. They belittle, even attack, the beliefs of others but demand universal respect for their own.
And you're wrong, modern American Christianity is very much about intellectualism, in that it is very specifically and purposefully anti-intellectual. Just as they seek to deny basic civil rights to anyone who doesn't toe their party line, they also seek to deny intellectual development to all by attacking anyone who dares to accept physical truth over their particular brand of warped mythology. They try to force their beliefs on others by attacking science and education. But then it's no surprise that people who think intellect isn't important can't even understand the precepts of their own religion.
The one thing this brand of Christianity is not about is the soul. It is about trying to have some twisted version of Heaven here on Earth, to avoid the requisite life of piety in a world you don't control in order to win redemption. Instead, you just have to ask nicely, and then persecute everyone who chooses a different path for his or her life, in order to build a shoddy imitation of paradise in which one's own beliefs are never challenged. In direct opposition to Jesus's own teachings, they want to make Earth their paradise, by forcing the rest of us to conform. The only logical explanation is that they don't believe in their own salvation and eternal after-life, and are clinging to this one instead. Otherwise they'd allow the rest of us to live our lives as we please.
If you want to convince the rest of us that you are actually anything other than a suburban poser about your beliefs, do as Jesus commanded - leave all your worldly goods behind and follow his example, and if the rest of us don't want to hear your message, don't try to ram it down our throats by passing discriminatory and un-Constitutional laws; turn away and allow us to do as we please with our own lives. Even if you're right and they are not ours but God's, they most certainly are not yours. As Jesus said, if there is any punishment due us, it is his, not yours, to parcel out. When Christians start behaving like Jesus, and stop behaving like bigots and hypocrites, they might win a little respect. Until then they don't deserve it.
My long-term interests are well taken care of, and are my concern. Only yours are your concern. When Christians start acting like they understand that concept, maybe then those of us with real souls, rather than plastic imitations, will start listening to them. Until then their message stinks as badly as their music.
Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 13 2008 @ 3:45PMRob,
It is obvious that you hate both God and your fellow man. How could a good person possibly, on their watch, allow the people around them to go to Hell without at least giving a warning (Evangelism) or trying to create a culture less likely to lead to sin and damnation for millions of human beings (Prop 8, Amendment 2)?
You say "Allow your fellow citizens to live in sin and iniquity, and mind your own business." This is like saying "Don't try to rescue your neighbor from a burning house."
As to the selfishness of Christians, our church undertakes massive charitable endeavors. We bring the Word to people in prisons. We feed the poor. We educate people around the world, sending missions and educators overseas. I know of no local atheist organization that can claim the same.
And as to the alteration of the national slogan in 1956, you should know that was an attempt to differentiate ourselves from the (atheistic, murderous) Soviet Union and PRC. If you don't welcome such a contrast, you're beyond help.
Yours truly
Common freaking sense
Rob,
I'd love to respond to "Common Freaking Sense"
Regarding the statement "As to the selfishness of Christians, our church undertakes massive charitable endeavors. We bring the Word to people in prisons. We feed the poor. We educate people around the world, sending missions and educators overseas. I know of no local atheist organization that can claim the same."
You bring the word to people in prisons? You preach to a literally captive audience. If I was in a cell and you showed up I would ask to be put on a suicide watch.
You "educate people around the world, sending mission and educators?" More preaching. Just trying to get more converts to line the coffers of Calvary mothing more. O and tax free income by the way.
The only thing you mention of merit is feeding the poor. But I'm sure some little prayer is part of the requirement. Most christian groups do require something in return. Well many atheists volunteer in kitchens and food pantries but we aren't expecting a reward for it. We also don't spend alot of time crowing about it either.
Oh and one more thing. I'm sure Rob doesn't hate "god". One can't hate what does not exist.
Keep this in mind.
Stupidity may be inherited.
But ignorance is self-induced.
I'll give you genetic credit...barely
Posted On: Saturday, Dec. 13 2008 @ 6:58PMNoSacredCow,
Yes! No shit, Christians preach! We're trying to SAVE PEOPLE FROM DAMNATION! What about that is hard to understand?
Oh, and to the author of this piece, Calvary's music is beautiful. These are people who are taking time out of their lives to devote beautiful music to their creator. Maybe by secular stands thay're not the greatest band in the world, but they're good. And heartfelt. You can feel that. Can't you feel the GOODNESS in that music? "You are the sovereign I Am" is a ebautiful theological statement. God's name is I Am, and the fact that I Am IS makes everything possible. So yes. A singer could get excited about that. Think about it, people.
Yours truly,
Common sense
Faggot theater critic. YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. $10 words will not save you, you elitist fudgepacking fuck.
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 14 2008 @ 1:09AMCommoner sense,
Were you filled with the holy spirit when you made that comment? You are a perfect example of Christian hypocricy.
How can "so called" born again Christians be filled with the spirit of Christ and yet act so unlike Christ? Enjoy your delusion.
Dirk B.
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 14 2008 @ 6:37PMCalvary Chapel, of course, is a fraud; a debased, New Age Christianity like the one preached by the Osteens. For reach Christians, you've gotta look to Westboro Baptist Church, or someone simular. There just aren't many serious Christians around any more.
Of course, that's good. Serious Christians are a blight. Most mealy-mouthed modern Christians are actually nice people, and wouldn't dream of stoning anyone to death. That means they're practically atheists already. They're certainly not following the Bible, which is the most smiting-filled book in the history of smiting-filled books.
The problems noticed by this story's author in Calvary's musical ouvre have to do with this very thing: Calvary is a watered-down religion that takes no strong stands on anything beyond the awesomeness of salvation. Of course their music is toothless -- they've only got one thing to sing about.
That said, it's a shame that no smart Christians have showed up to dispute the article's arguments. The ones that have posted so far have nothing, nada, to contribute. Is this really the best defense that the world's greatest monotheism can muster? If so, Christianity's obviously on its last legs.
- Thom Debord
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 14 2008 @ 7:27PMEr, typo. "For *real* Christians, you've gotta look to Westboro Baptist Church, or someone *similar.*"
Mea culpa.
- Thom Debord
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 14 2008 @ 7:31PMI refuse to respect any group, organization or religion that prides itself on "soul over intellect."
Certainly, there is a realm of existence that eludes analysis or explanation. Questions regarding the "purpose" (if there is any) to our existence, what lies beyond death (if anything), why we sometimes seem to "know" things without being told, etc. But when people are offered a scientific method of understanding something and willfully kick it aside and dismiss it in favor of metaphysics and pseudo-science, I can only shake my head in contempt. Yes, I said contempt.
Bible-believers insist that we couldn't have evolved because God made us in his image. And yet, we are supposed to check our brains at the church door and go on believing tales of people fashioned from ribs overnight, or from dirt, and a big boat that can hold two of every living creature, and spirits descending from the sky. If your intellect is a gift from God, you'd best use it. If God does exist, an honest analysis of creation won't diminish its wonder in the least.
Posted On: Sunday, Dec. 14 2008 @ 10:12PMThis comment is for Mr. Thorp and his atheist commentators.
Indeed it is unfortunate that no serious Christian apologeticists have posted here. I am not one myself, and maybe that is what's needed to address Mr. Thorp's larger point. The larger point, I think, is that Christianity has nothing to struggle against, and since it's a religion that has at all times in the past flowered best when facing persecution, it currently has become fat and decadent.
Fair enough. But you're confusing politics with spirituality. The author can talk about the overall weakness of Calvary Chapel, just as the commentators above can point to faceless factions of the Christian population that behave badly and cruelly towards people. But if this is rwelly an "atheist pulpit," then you need to deal with Christianity's claims on an individual basis, and you need to deal with them as they pertain to individual believers.
Nothing in this article in any way invalidates what an individual believer at Calvary Chapel might feel contemplating the mystery of Christ or the largeness of God's apparent plan. Nothing in it speaks to the revelatory feeling that sometimes comes over the devout. You see talentless musicians and people pretending to like them, and I see people who are trying to break through to the profundity behind the bland music. Maybe they're not the greatest band in the world. Who cares? They're trying, in their own way, to approach something unfathomable. Maybe it's the season, but now I'm thinking about the Little Drummer Boy, who could only go Barrum-pum-pum-pum. This was good enough, because his heart was in the right place.
There really is an elitism in noticing only the apparent flaws in the music. You don't know these people, you don't know what they're feeling or what they're trying to do. Faith is inherently personal, even when it's being practiced and contemplated in a room full of thousands of people. The blonde woman you described might not be trying to "impersonate Janis Joplin" for the congregation's benefit. She might be deep inside herself. This may be her at her most unselfconscious, because she knew that this was a place where that was okay, where she could stand naked before God. You can critique her performance, but you should never forget that her intended audience was someone far older, far wiser, and less judgmental than you.
Maybe before yuo write anything else like this, you should try to put yourself in the believers' shoes. Go to a church, any church, and try to do more than just observe. Try to feel what the congregation feels. It might not change your cosmology, but it might help you develop some of the humility you believe Christians lack.
Posted On: Tuesday, Dec. 16 2008 @ 4:24PM














